"JOB, WHERE WAST THOU?"


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As in most all Christian camps or circles, there are some current kingdom sonship theological teachings and beliefs that differ from one another regarding the same subject. There are certain major doctrinal differences which differences extend all the way back to the foundational premises of those belief systems. Thus the differences are more than just slight in some cases. The problem arises in that if the foundation of the doctrine is unstable or out of kilter, so will the remainder of it be just as bad. However much we would like to see unity in doctrine, both it and the "unity of the faith" (Eph.4:13) which all true believers will one day attain unto is yet still in part due to the fact we all yet see "through a glass darkly." 1Cor.13:12. Until we "grow up into Him in all things", God's children will continue in their differences because of their inpartness.

Having differences because of inpartness is an unavoidable situation but has an ordained part in our Christian growth. Yet it takes a back seat to the overall teaching of first Corinthians chapter thirteen. Having great gifts, understanding all mysteries and knowledge and having great faith is yet as nothing apart from our desire to develop in the true love of God. So even as the brethren continue on in some differences it should not hinder the kind of love they should have one for the other despite their different in part levels of understanding different revelations of God's word.

The main purpose of this little study or any of our studies is not to be argumentative or to carnally dispute another's doctrine but rather just to provide what undoubtedly would be alternate views for some. In this, they might become even better equipped for themselves to decide what is truth according to the scriptures and what is not. In this particular case we take a look at just one of the more common of these doctrinal differences that prevails in current kingdom teaching. It is one that shows up often in what some people say or write and is commonly referred to as The Fatherhood doctrine or the doctrine of pre-existence. It basically implies a pre-existence of the sons of God and can include in its scope even all of mankind in general. As with most other doctrines, there are several varying forms of it, but it basically all comes down to a similar belief system. That is, that mankind existed as fully created beings in the heavens even before the earth was created. The belief by some is that they were always with God, even as God, before they came into the earth, whether speaking of the original earthly creation or creation through natural birth.

A primary belief is, mankind was created in spirit form only at some undetermined point before the Genesis chapter two account of Adam in the garden. In relation to this, some believe there were two accounts of creation in Genesis chapter one and chapter two. These of course differ more than slightly with those who believe that the personal spirit and soul of mankind did not exist in the creation previous to the Genesis account of an earthly creation in the garden of Eden supporting the doctrine of pre-existence is the common supposition that we as children of God simply have no recollection of our previous dwelling place. That basic thought is not unlike the basic belief in reincarnation that we had a previous life or lives somewhere before we were born. To recall our past life by remembrance or by knowledge or by revelation or by whatever means it takes supposedly can aid in our spiritual advancement by changing our attitudes and often our works or lack of works.


To forget who we once were and what we once had in God is based on certain pre suppositions and conjectures that do not have any sound scriptural foundation that this author is aware of. If this doctrine was of such an important truth on which further revelational truths are rightly built upon, one would think it would be fairly evident, especially in the New Testament. The letter of it at least, should not be all that hard to find. The words and phrases that so many who believe in this should be there to clearly support the premises of the theory. And if they are, they should all be able to be rightly divided in a way that shines an even clearer light on the basic doctrinal belief.

In this study we first wish to look at all the obvious words and derivatives of these words that are most commonly used by most brethren when advocating the belief of human pre-existence.. One would think there must be adequate scriptural support for the usage of these words and little catch phrases. But is there?

Seeing as it is such a common "buzz" word in the pre-existence theology, it may be surprising to some how many times the word "forgets" is used in the KJV. The answer is Zero. None. Now check out how many times the singular word "forget is used. Only two. Next, look at how many times "forgotten" is used. Five times. Now we are getting somewhere are we not? Well no, because not even one of the fore mentioned could be reasonably considered to be even remotely connected with such a doctrine as pre-existence. Okay then, what about the word "remember." Now this seems more like it as it is actually found twenty-seven times. However, "remembers" the plural of it is not found at all.

"Remembereth" is found twice only. "Remembered" is found eight times and "remembering" one time. Again, examine all these scriptures with these words. One would think there would be scriptures with these words that would be supportive of the belief under discussion. Again, it should be obvious that not one is even remotely associated with the idea of remembering a past existence.

There is only one word in the entire New Testament that has a possibility when being stretched to the limit that might even hint at such a thing. That is the word "remembrance." "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." Jn.14:26.

Was Jesus really speaking of all things we knew in a former life In a life we had with the Father and the Son somewhere before the creation of earthly things? The preceding verses, especially verses 24 and 25 qualify what Jesus is actually speaking about. The end of verse 26 says, those things which He will bring to remembrance are "whatsoever I have said unto you." The clear evidence is, he was talking about what His disciples would remember of what he had spoken during His earthly sojourn in the time after he went away for them as explained in verses 27 and 28. The things they would remember were those important things He had spoken unto them "being yet present with you." Jn.14:25. That is the context. That is what they would remember. Not some past existence they had. In other words He was saying, the holy Spirit will bring all those things "whatsoever I have said unto you"..."being yet present with you." Other scriptures such as Jn.16:4,5; 2Ths.2:5; 1Jn.2:27 and others go right along with this. It is vain imagination to think it has anything to do with remembering a previous life.

Let's see then. What else could support this idea? What about the word "former?" That might apply. Nope. Check it out. It's found only five times in the New Testament and there's nothing remotely possible here.

How about trying "time past" and its possibilities of supporting this doctrine. Nope. There are four occurrences of this but again, no reasonable possibilities there. So where are the scriptures found in which these commonly used words and meanings might be found to support what's basically believed and expressed in this doctrine that is dependent upon remembrance. The fact is, these are found nowhere in the New Testament containing any of these words that are commonly used to express the basic doctrine. Should this not be an indication that this is not scripturally sound, much less scripturally supported at all?

But there's still the Old Testament even though it has been said that the New Testament is actually the Old Testament revealed and conversely, the Old Testament is the New Testament concealed. Let's do a search for scripture there anyways, as surely this popular doctrine cannot be all that hard to find in the Bible? Looking in the Old Testament now, we do find it contains more uses of the above words which we searched out in the New Testament.

Let's start our further study here again with the word "forget." It is used fifty-two times in fourty-nine verses. Wow! Examine each one closely. It's doubtful there is even one verse that could be used as a base or foundation for such doctrine. The usage of the words speak for themselves. Okay, what about the plural form of the word, "forgets." Surely that would perfectly describe the premise of the doctrine? But no. Strangely, that particular word is nowhere to be found in the Bible.

Again, same with the word "forgotten" which occurs fourty-one times. There is not one verse that could reasonably be applicable. Duet.32:18 speaks of them forgetting about God in this life, not from a past life. Clearly, so does Job 19:14; Isa.17:10; Jer.2:32; 3:21 and some other like meaning scriptures.

Looking for the word "remembers", we again find zero verses. Looking for "remembereth" we find only three verses which are very clearly non applicable. Now here's a word that certainly has possibilities because of its frequent use. "Remember" is found one hundred twenty-one times in one hundred-seventeen verses. Look each one up individually. Do you see any verses amongst these out of which to build such a doctrine? I certainly don't and I think even anyone who wants to embellish his belief by using even one of these scriptures would be hard pressed to do so and only fooling themselves.

Now for the word "remembered" we find a further fourty-nine verses. How about Isa.65:17? Well, it speaks of that which is to come and refers back to the heaven that is now. Nothing about the past. No other verses are remotely applicable.


For the word "remembering" we find one non related verse only. For "remembrance" we find it thirty times in twenty-nine verses but no former pre-existence remembrance interpretations feasible here that I can see. However, what I do see is this....."Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us. There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after." Eccl.1:10,11.

It seems evident that remembering a former state or existence is impossible even if there was something to remember. Surely this principle flies in the face of the remembrance doctrine, especially one involving a necessity to remember our true identity? If that was the teaching Jesus advocated for our spiritual growth then why did not He or His disciples make it plain? Or for that matter, why is it found to be non-existent in the both the Old and New Testaments?

But we still have the word "former" to look up. That surely should give us some support. It occurs fourty-five times in fourty-two verses. Is there any usage in any of the scriptures wherein this word is found that could be used to build a doctrine of mankind's former existence? The truth is, there is none at all!

Oh, how about "times past?" Yep. It occurs four times. But no, they all clearly speak only of times past in this earth. "Time past" perhaps? It's found six times. But again, nope. Same thing. "Past times" perhaps? Nope. Again zilch.


So, if it is based on the word of God in the scriptures, where is this doctrine to be found? Where is its foundation? If it is biblically based where does it come from? What is it built upon? Primarily, it evolves from one highly controversial and difficult to interpret passage found in Job. Namely Job 38:4-7. That passage is the most common one, and often the only one quoted in support of the whole doctrine. There is also one passage of scriptures in Proverbs that can when taken grossly out of context can seem to support the idea of man's creation even before the Creator appointed the foundations of the earth. This misconception is as a result of misinterpreting Prv.8:22-31 as man speaking, rather than it being the personified voice of God's wisdom and understanding speaking. The truth is, God's wisdom and understanding puts forth her voice beginning from verse one all the way through to verse 36 and continuing on in Chapter nine. There is no change of context in who is speaking.

The mouth that is calling unto the sons of men in the earth (Prv.8:4) and speaking truth, righteousness, wisdom, understanding, knowledge, instruction, counsel etc. to us all, is personified by personal pronouns throughout the whole chapter such as "I", "she", "my" and "he." This is none other than a personification of the always existing Christ who was ever with the Father (Jn.17:5) and is made unto the sons of men, wisdom and righteousness and sanctification and redemption - 1Cor.1:30. Wisdom was in the works of God from everlasting. The Wisdom of God was there when the Lord "appointed the foundations of the earth." (Prv.8:29) "for He hath established the world by His wisdom" (Jer.10:12) rejoicing in the habitual parts of His earthly creation and His delights were with the sons of men - Prv.8:31. What always was with God the Father was God the Son, even His wisdom. Nothing in this chapter has anything to do with mankind speaking or co-existing with the Creator before the earth was established.

It's time now to take a look at that main controversial passage in Job. Let's see how this fares when examined from a different if not equally plausible way of looking at it. This scripture cannot be rightly divided with the preceding mentioned passage in Proverbs. If we have ears to hear, neither is speaking of the pre-existence of men at all.

Here the Lord questions Job, "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?.......When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" Jb. 38:4-7. This is proof positive some say, that mankind pre-existed. However, when all is said and done, it can be argued that this passage is actually an excellent support scripture in the belief that mankind did not pre exist.

So let's use this scripture as a foundational one and see where it leads. The theology of pre-existence is dependent upon this controversial scripture and the rest of what stems from this is even more controversial. That supposition that "the sons of God" are in fact all of humanity which pre-existed with the Father is the primary base on which this is built. But a shaky one it is. There are only four other places in the Old Testament where "the sons of God" are mentioned. All of these scriptures are subject to private interpretation as to just who these sons are, and hence very controversial in Christian theology.

Much as been written supporting both sides of the controversy as to who these sons are. Both sides have some seemingly valid points in this centuries old controversy. It is not our purpose to go into those things in detail here. But in general, some think Gen.6:2 and 4 speak of created angels who sinned, left their first estate and came to earth. Some think they were actually men of unrighteous lineage. Some think they were offspring of giants, Anakhim etc. Then in Job, we read of the sons of God who came to present themselves before the Lord and Satan came also among them. Some say they were God's angels, others believe they were sons of the chosen earthly lineage. But then there still is Job 38:7 and that will be our primary focus here.

Most should be able to eliminate the other four scriptures in their mind at least, as being related in any way to a state of man's conscious pre existence. It is obvious the two scriptures, one in Job.1:6 and the other in Job 2:1 are not speaking of any sons there as existing before man inhabited the earth. Whether they be men or angels, this clearly took place during the early Old Testament times when Job lived on earth. And in the case of the other two scriptures, it is clearly evident it also took place when mankind was already present in the earth. So any pre-existence Fatherhood type doctrine that includes any of those four scriptures for support is on weak footings.

Still, this leaves us with Job.38:7. A most mysterious scripture indeed! However, what this scripture seems to indicate is not adequately supported by other scriptures; at least not enough to support a major doctrine. If this be the case, what then is this scripture portraying? Is it not both logical and possible in the whole context of what He was trying to get Job to understand here. And that was that God had all wisdom, all knowledge, all power, all sovereignty in all these mysterious things of the earth as well as the whole universe? So Job who thought he knew and understood so much, really understood next to nothing in comparison to God. It seems God's first point was in saying that Job himself wasn't even there with God, so how could he know even a hill of beans about all these wondrous things.

                                                                                             "Where Wast Thou"


"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth", asked the Lord. The noteworthy thing here is that Job obviously didn't have any knowledge much less any remembrance of any of these things. How could he, seeing he wasn't there! Furthermore, how could he or any other human sons be there in conscious form at that specific time "when" the Creator "laid the foundation of the earth." This clearly contradicts the Genesis account of when man was created.

Back to Jb.38:4. The "foundations of the earth" is that relatively short period of time in the very beginning of God's earthly creation of the heavens and the earth. Just like the temple in Ezra chapter four began to be built with a foundation, so did the future habitation of God, even our earth, have a basic foundation that was laid out and completed before the rest of the building was finished. In the Genesis account, this was on the third day - Gen.1:10-12. Then God proceeded to build upon this basic foundation of the earth right on up to the top of His temple when he finally revealed that He was yet to create mankind.

Not until He had created all other forms of earthly life did he finally create man! It was on the 6th and final day, not before, nor during, but (days, years, ages, centuries?) after the foundation of the earth was laid that He created the first of mankind. And i dare believe that when He said, "Let us create man in our image, after our likeness" He may also have been including His creation of angelic beings who were already in existence. Note that there is no record in Genesis one precisely when the holy angels were created. But they necessarily are included in the many scriptures speaking of the creation of "all things."


Also, Gen.2:1 reveals that all the hosts were created by or previous to the sixth day when man was first created, whether it first was in spirit form only, or in spirit soul body form there in an earthly garden. There is another way in showing more precisely that the angels were created much earlier than man. We will bring this out further on. Know for now that the words "laid" and "foundation" are key words in this revelation.

So, when was man created? The scriptural record says the sixth day. Suffice to say here, Gen.2:4-7 is not another creation. It simply begins a more detailed account of the creation of mankind. Here the Lord God first "formed" man and breathed life into him. He received the kind of spirit life that made him a living soul upon the earth out of which he was formed. This spiritual life substance that animated his physical body was not the highest kind of Spirit that was said to be God's holy Spirit when Jesus breathed on his faithful disciple in Jn.20:22. These disciples already were living and had that similar form of personal animated spirit that was breathed into the first created body. It was not a holy Spirit but rather a creative life producing spirit that brought forth and sustained the natural life of all God's earthly creatures.

This creative act by God in Eden is the very first account in scripture of man's creation. Not only was his body formed there but so was his soul spirit as well. To teach he was created at the foundation of the earth or somewhere, sometime in the heavens before he was brought forth out of the earth is simply without basis. Man was created. The Bible makes that very clear. To say that he actually was created in any kind of spirit form, conscious or unconscious before that time on the sixth day when God stated a desire to create him...is apart from the scripture revelation. To say he was always with God much less as God as some do, is very much contrary to the biblical account of man's creation.

The false so called Fatherhood doctrine teaches man was created in the heavens first as a spirit being and he was a living conscious creation there, not just on the sixth day but even before the third day of creation. But the scriptures clearly refute both theories. Remember, God proposed to create man in His image and His likeness. The basic image of The Father and the Son and His angels who were ministering spirits, is "spirit!" It is not flesh. Yet the description of man's first and only creation includes a flesh body. He was not created once as a spirit man and again later in the earth as a physical man.

God had already created the angels in His Spirit image and likeness. He had also created almost all else before He created man. But He hadn't yet created man in any image or likeness up to the last day of His creating. If man were already present with Him in spirit form before he was created with body, soul and spirit in the earth, then how could it be that it wasn't until the end of the sixth day that God even proposed to create a spiritual facsimile of Himself? Again, remember God is Spirit.

Further to all of this, God's word tells us about "the foundation" of man himself. The scripture nowhere says man's "spirit" was alive or in fact was any where before he was formed from the clay. Rather on the contrary it says this. "Behold, He put no trust in his servants; and his angels He charged with folly: How much less in them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation is in the dust, which are crushed before the moth?"Jb.4:18,19. This indicates that the beginning of man's existence or his "foundation" was from the dust of the earth and not in the heavens. Within that dust was man's real "foundation." Man's spirit substance was created and first brought forth when God breathed into his dusty house of clay or earthly body at the time it was formed in the earth. Man did not have his foundation in the heavens. It was in the earth where the Lord God formed (created) man and it was not until then that he became a living soul - Gen.3:7. The soul had no form of life prior to that time.


From that time on, I would venture to surmise as did Job of old. "Did not He that made me in the womb make him (Job's servant)? and did not one fashion us in the womb?" Jb.31:15. Some would insist mankind is first made and fashioned in the heavens. Would we be wrong to say that mankind is still being formed, fashioned, made or created in the earth? There are some that don't think so. Isaiah said it too. "This saith the Lord, they redeemer, and He that formed thee from the womb. I am the Lord that maketh all things." Isa.44:2,24; 49:1,5. Did He even hint that part of man ie. his spirit was formed somewhere else other than in the womb? After all, the real man is a spirit that inhabits a fleshly body only temporarily.


If the preceding be in fullness of truth, would we be wrong to say that men are still being formed or fashioned and are alive and conscious in the heavens before being brought forth into the earth via an earthly womb? Let every man decide for himself. However, there should be a strong scriptural foundation for it if it is actually the truth. The Bible only speaks of one man where this pre-existence was so. That man was the only begotten Son of God our Lord Jesus Christ. Amazingly, there are even some who do not believe that the Son of God pre-existed.

Is there any more evidence to support what is advocated as being the truth here, that man's existence did not precede his creation in the earth The Psalmist brings it out quite clearly saying, "For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvelous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them." Psa.139:13-16.

Jer.1:5 gives a further understanding of what was being revealed in the preceding scripture. Jeremiah spoke a word from the Lord saying to him and to us, "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee." In other words, we were known in God's book of blueprints so to speak even before we were made and fashioned in an earthly womb. God's foreknowledge is evident throughout the Bible.

Job was not without some knowledge regarding his own creation - Jb.33:4-6. "The Spirit (ruach) of God hath made (Heb. asah) me, and the breath (Heb. neshamah) of the Almighty hath given me life (Heb. chayah)....I also am formed (Heb. qarats) out of the clay."Jb.33:4-6. "Asah" also means the same as the words "created" or "formed" - Isa.43:7; 45:18. "Chayah" - 2Kgs.8:1,5; Ezk.3:18. This same original word is used here and denotes natural physical life and existence. "Neshama" - is also referred to as "the spirit of man" in Prv.20:27. Was the original Adam man's creation any different in principle? Does this lend more to the thought of a previous heavenly creation and existence or to a a one time earthly creation?

It is written, "But thou art He that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts. I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly. Psa.22:9.10. Why didn't the Psalmist say, "Thou art my God from when I was alive in a previous creation and present with you before I was in my mother's belly? Surely He would have continued being his God if he was existing there previously with His Creator up until he was formed in his mothers womb?" If pre-existence is true it makes no sense that this relationship would not begin until the actual time he was in his mothers belly. Eccl.11:5 states, "As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all."

Did God form Jacob in the heavens prior to the womb or did he create him right there in the womb? "Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen: Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed (created) thee from the womb.." Isa.44:1, 2.

Again it is written in Isa.49:1, "Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name. And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant."

In winding down this study, here is something further with regards to the angels. This lends further scriptural support toward the belief that the angels are also "sons of God." And this will further substantiate approximately when it is they were created. The following can be seen here as a parallel picture of God's creating from the "foundation" of the earth.

Once it is pointed out, one does not have to look all that closely to see that in the passages from Ezra chapter 3 verses 1 to 13, there are some very interesting singular words and phrases that practically jump off the page. In verse one, we first find the word "together". There was a gathering together. This cannot but help remind us of that passage in Job regarding the "sons of God." Next there is the similar word "laid" as well as "the foundation" in verse 6. Again we have "together" and also we find "sons of" in verse 9. Again we find the phrase "the foundation of" and not only that but also "the sons of"... in vs.10.

Now here's where it really kicks in and it is very difficult to deny this is a parallel truth even best a type and shadow of the controversial Job passage. Ezra 3 verse 11 dovetails in more of Job proclaiming they "sang together" and "all...shouted" plus "the foundation" and again duplicated. Then in verses 12 and 13 look what we find besides more of "the foundation" and "laid" words. What did these builders do here when the foundation was laid? It is written they "shouted for joy"! Are you not almost ready to shout too?

Now look again at Job 38. Specifically at verses 4 and 7. It's almost word for word! "When I laid the foundation of the earth." This was the time when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy." Note the words and phrases bolded here and in the preceding scriptures. Does this not make you shout Praise the Lord? Hallelujah! Is this not plain enough to bring out the real meaning of Job 38:4?

These builders here in Ezra are revealing or at least typifying the sons in Job, just as much in these passages are typifying the creation of the very foundation of earth wherein God's original temple has been built.In conclusion, the scriptural foundation that has already been laid out in this study showed that mankind could not possibly have been with God at the time His foundation was created long before the sixth day's end. This leaves one little else to conclude except that the "sons" in Job 38:7 are none other than the angelic creation. They are ministers and servants that were created to first serve together with their Creator in building the very foundation of His creation in preparation for the yet to be created sons of God. Sons after the Creator's basic likeness and image, who were to be formed in the realm of the newly created earth just a little lower than the angels. Not formed before or even at the foundations of the heavens and the earth, but rather at the completion of His universal temple Gen.2:1.

"The works of the Lord are great, sought out of all them that have pleasure therein. His work is honorable and glorious: and His righteousness endureth for ever. He hath made His wonderful works to be remembered." Psa.111:2-4. This is not any work we had with Him before man's creation nor any works He had with us in a previous heavenly existence, else these should be there in the scriptures even if not in our minds some remembrance to remind us of these personal things. However what's recorded in His word regarding all of His creation and the confirmation of it that we see all around us in the majesty of it all, is what He has left with us lest men forget their Creator. "For that which may be known of God is manifest in them, for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead" (Ro.1:19, 20) so that mankind is without excuse.

K. Ross McKay